Viper Trading Systems
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Honesty
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Quality
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Cost
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Support
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Verified Trades
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User Experience
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Summary
Not too often that someone manages to score the lowest possible score of only one star. But these three trading stooges just set a new worlds record for the worst trading room on the internet. A complete and total sham operation. No performance disclosure, no trading DOM present, no account statements, they completely refuse to provide any supporting documentation that proves even the most minuscule amount of authenticity. Avoid at all cost.
User Review
( votes)Today’s Review is Viper Trading Systems
Viper Trading Systems is a live day trading room hosted and moderated by Charles Boyle, Gary Donahoo, and Richard Straiton. The cost of the live day trading room is $399 per month, which includes a group of indicators with fancy names like Viper Pro Indicators, Viper Apriori Swings, Viper Lightning, Viper Shadow Bars, High Energy Times.
If these indicators are not enough to divine the markets, then additional indicators can also be purchased for an additional monthly fee of $199. These include the Time Trader, Viper Channel Trader, and the Viper True Trend.
However, if you really want to experience the full power of Viper, then you should also consider forking out an additional $199 per month, which gives access to an even more advanced set of indicators including: Viper Auto Fibs, Viper Automatic ABC formations, Viper VipRenko Bars, Viper Auto Zones, Viper Money Management Statistics, Viper Automated Zone Trader, Viper Squaring of Price Indicator, Viper Trend Timing Indicator, Viper EMA, Viper Prophet, Viper Triangles, Viper Right Edge, and the Viper Dynamic Trend Indicator.
The full Viper enchilada costs $798 per month.
Initial Observation
The Viper Trading Systems website has a history on Archive.org that dates back to 2010. There really has not been much of a change in the website over the years, except for the shear amount of additional indicators that can now be purchased. I think that it is important to note that the website is named Viper Trading Systems, which implies some form systematic automation. This really piqued my interest on whether they had ever offered any sort of track able trading system. I like when a trading vendor develops a trading system founded upon the logic of the indicator, this allows some form of statistical analysis.
Sure enough, after digging through Archive.org, I was able to find where Viper Trading Systems was at one time a trading system vendor that last reported trading result on 25,000+ trades as of August 2014. For whatever reason, they have now scraped the site clean of any performance statistics or claims of making any trades.
Another google search for “Viper Trading Systems Review” turned up various threads on other trading related sites like Big Mikes and Elite Trader that go into greater detail about individual traders experiences regarding the trading systems. I could find no positive written information for Viper Trading Systems, the biggest complaint was that the trading system could not be replicated in real time.
It appears that in early 2015, Viper Trading Systems simply tossed the idea of offering an automated trading solution and decided to focus on just selling indicators and a live trading room.
Another key observation is that Viper Trading Systems is not maintaining any sort of log of performance inside of the trading room. Neither is there any mention of the individual trading performance of any of the company representatives. The only way to measure performance was to log into the trading room each day, attempt to replicate the trades via simulator, and record everything via Camtasia screen recording.
The Live Trading Room
The live trading room begins each day at 5am PST and then ends at 830am PST. In total, we recorded 10 trading days and about 33 hours of the live trading room. The trading room usually begins with one of the three moderators coming into the trading room and discussing the nights events. And then about a half hour later, the other two moderators then join the room. The action starts to pick up about 630am PST, which is the opening of the US stock market.
At no time during the entire 10 days screen recordings did we ever see a trading DOM present on the screen, nor did we see any orders being entered directly onto the charts. It was just talking. Lots of talking. And I mean three guys talking quickly and excitedly, nearly nonstop the entire time. After the 2nd day of live trading, my assistant, whom was attempting to record each trade and trade via a simulator sent me a message written in both English and Tagalog. Whenever she sends me a message interspersed with Tagalog, I know we have trouble because she will use the Tagalog to insult and say nasty things. She is fluent in English and has a college degree, but they don’t teach English insults in a Filipino University. And so, when she starts mixing in Tagalog then I know she is pissed off and upset.
At the end of day number two, I had her quit attempting to copy the trades because these guys were only verbally scalping in and out, and there was no possible way to replicate what they were doing. There was no “enter at price X, with a stop at price Y, and a target at price Z”.
For instance, Gary would say something like, “there’s the box on the Nazy, dipping my toe, hoping for a coast to coast on that Shadow Bar”. And then a moment later, Richard would interject his message of, “Watch the Bandido, Watch the Bandido, looking sloppy taking 3 quick with tight stop”, and finally a moment later Charles would say, “I got that Viper Triangle with a single on the slippery side, exiting on VipRenko”. At the end of these nearly constant quick exchanges, they would then take turns congratulating each other on taking these mystery profits and how the day was turning out to be fabulous.
And the end of each day’s trading, I kindly asked for a spreadsheet of the trades taken in the room. None were ever provided. their attitude was that by watching the living trading, that it should be plainly obvious just how profitable these proprietary indicators where performing. My complaint of everything moving too quickly was met with the response that after using the indicators for a month, then I would begin to grasp the power of the indicators and that my profits will explode, just like them. I wanted to ask for account statements, but since they wouldn’t even provide any sort of accounting of these wild and crazy non stop trading calls, it was pretty obvious that no live trading was happening. Just a lot of lively conversation and back slapping each other for the making of mystery profits. I can imagine how the layperson would of felt left out of all of the fun and money making.
How It Really Works
By the fourth day of watching these guys talk about trading and making profits, the brilliance of their marketing effort began to set in. Let me explain, as the trading day progresses, the moderators will be quickly calling trades, and each of these trades would be associated with a different indicator. Moderator A would quickly call a trade because the “Viper Autozone” just gave a signal, then moderator B, about 30 seconds later would declare that the “Viper True Trend” indicator just gave an ultra bullish reading in the dollar index and how he just got 5 ticks, and about 1 minute later moderator C would declare that the Dynamic Trend Indicator just fired off a beautiful short in the crude oil and he already locked in 8 ticks with an additional runner.
At the end of each trading session, the poor rube watching all of this gets the feeling that everyone was pulling profits with ease because of these magic indicators. The poor rube is thinking to himself that he just witnessed something fantastic and exiting, and with a little practice with these indicators, he also will be pulling in big bucks.
I have watched a lot of trading rooms moderators since I started this blog, and this was one of the more entertaining, in terms of hustle, chicanery, and misdirection. These guys at Viper are quite obviously not trading, but they have figured that they can sell these indicators by creating a group think dynamic that feeds on itself. The trading room attendees want desperately to join the fun, and enter the race. But what they do not understand is that none of these guys are actually racing, they are just talking excitedly and hoping that the excitement rubs off.
These guys really remind me of three guys at a Las Vegas craps table, they are screaming and whooping and hollering and high fiving each other. And you naturally look at them and want to be part of the action. Once you arrive at the crap table, they are excited and tell you about their “Viper Craps Betting System” that allows them to make quick cash and beat the house. You have no ideas how to play craps, but their enthusiasm is contagious, and so you quickly give them $798 and then try and follow along as one guy is betting the pass line with odds, the other guy is betting the come bet, the other guy is betting the hard ways. As the dice are tossed, one of the three guys always seems to win and then they all whoop and holler and congratulate each other. You are sitting there with your chips all over the crap table, totally confused and you have no idea what is happening, but it all seems so exiting and profitable. The following video clip does a good job capturing the nonsense of this trading room. Watch, and ask yourself if you can replicate this…
Wrapping Things Up
When evaluating these trading rooms, it is always important to remember to not lose focus and not be distracted by fast talk and shiny objects. What matters is performance. And the bottom line is that none of these stooges will reveal personal trading performance. And there is no record of the trading called inside of the trading room. If you watched the above video, you should of counted nearly 10 separate trades that were called inside the span of this 15 minute trading video.
Now imagine having to watch, monitor, and record each of these guys over a 2.5 hour period. How many trades do they call out during the typical day? On average they call out nearly 60 trades an hour. The typical trading day, we estimated nearly 150 trades. Just image for moment, after watching this video, could you possible have any chance of replication at 150 trades each day? Would you even want to? And can you imagine how much in commissions you would be paying to your broker? 150 trades each day, at $4 per trade, and you would be spending $600 each day in trading commissions. This would be insane and a sure fire way to quickly destroy a trading account.
Well, that’s it for today. Yet another crummy trading room with zero performance disclosure, no trading DOM, no trading from the charts, no chance of replication, moderators that refuse to provide a track record of live trades, refusal to provide an account statement of trades. Just a mess of mumbo jumbo from three, fasting talking stooges looking to make a buck by selling indicators at $798 each month.
Update on Viper
After several months I am finally becoming comfortable with the Viper System.
BTW — Charles died and only Gary is left to moderate the Trading Room.
In any case, THE SYSTEM WORKS SO LONG AS YOU FOLLOW THE RULES. PERIOD. I make money doing that, and lose money when my EGO thinks it can call the Markets on hunch alone. So I plan to continue the Trading Room Service because, although there have been many losing trades, I have not seen a losing day in 4 months so far.
Pros
Cons
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To Laura
You have worked it out for yourself ands I really appreciate your posting this. It may save other people $ 500 you have spent so far
just to find out.
You describe typical behaviour of someone (well 99% of sellers) who do not trade themselves, who try to confuse rather than explain, and to mystify rather than simplify. If everyone understood what they were doing then everyone would know they were scam. So they have to wrap it up in mystery and keep people guessing and hoping for the best.
So it goes: Did you get that? I called it earlier! Charts freezing – well that’s the best thing for them, they can always say: I would have got this but my charts were frozen. Indicators not working. Making it hard for you to use other software, you are only supposed to use theirs. Not responding to emails and queries. You bewildered (as you so desperately want this to work for you) and with a lot of questions no one is answering. That’s after they took your payment.
You don’t need me to tell you: This is classic scammers’ behaviour. Please do not give them another £ 250.
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I promised I would be back with an update, and I keep my promises. The two gentlemen are nice people. No question. They zoomed in and provided the indicator suite.
However, we are really disappointed at 250 per month. First, they advertise for Ninja Trader 7 and 8, but the indicators (at the time of this review) do not work on 8. Which we use.
It has been 2 months now and 500 dollars later, but we cannot use the Object Trader. They freeze the charts. They are aware and keep saying they are being fixed. They also tell you to use a toned-down version of the indicator which allows for the screen to remain stable, but removes the other proprietary indicators you rent. If you want the indicators to function as they use them in the room, you must use NT7. That would not be a problem if our data feed was not already tied to NT8 and all of the paid indicators as well accumulated in the past. So we are trying to take the trades on a different platform which is not convenient. When they say draw a trendline, we cannot match the charts on the other platform.
Second, they do not respond quickly in the chat. Often they never see your question and never respond. My husband also sent an email describing his need for clarification and training. He did receive a response, but no follow-up.
Thirdly, it gets confusing as they call out trades. They have one person call out ES while the other calls out CL and/or GC. The terms (as mentioned in other reviews) are confusing b/c they are not familiar. “Box that in” they say, but we can’t because the box does not work on NT8.
Fourthly, I see my husband discouraged b/c they constantly say “did you get that” or “I called that out” but he didn’t get to participate. It is as if they don’t want to deal with the customers who are waiting for the updates on the NT8 indicators and in the meantime are treated as sort of the “red headed stepchild”.
Finally, they have had numerous meetings regarding funding opportunities. But how does that work if the customer cannot understand how to use the Viper system and is currently lost?
I am not happy overall. My husband is a bit more generous and believes they are not trying to hurt others. Nevertheless, we have not made any money to write home about. I would agree the Object Trader is very unique and a great idea, but as I mentioned already, it is not currently working on our NT8. and at the time we have no idea when it will be resolved.
I just signed up. I read all of the reviews above, but I am not convinced solely because someone uses funny terms or wont provide statements. I want to experience this myself before I believe anyone. In my experience. I generally have the opposite problem. I read positive reviews on something and get ripped off. Having purchased high cost indicators like the CPX2 and the XABCD crap, I can try Viper for a month and walk away from the subscription. Rule of thumb for me is all Vendors and Educational sources are crap until proven otherwise. I will be happy to come back after a time and provide a review as a customer.
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Please do. I would love to know how things work out in the future.
My biggest problem is that if the “trading systems” are so good, then why not trade them yourself. And report the actual results with brokerage statements?
good article and informative
It’s true they never open the chat room public, nor comment on the subject they don’t like to, will keep on saying to resend the request so the listeners will think they are honest
I received an email offering a free few days in their room. OK, I’ll bite. I did not even pay attention to the name of the firm. Just before I logged in I noted it was Viper and I checked Emmett’s site. I scanned the review and logged into the room. The only thing that has changed is there were only 2 guys talking. Good night what a joke. A total cluster F$%& of a chart setup.
After they closed down the room for the day, I watched the video clip here on this review. One of the moderators said the word beautious a couple of times. That raised 10,000 red flags with me as I know that is one of Oliver Velez’ expressions!
I have done some analyses a few months ago, and yes the room is a lot of distraction. But….First time in the midband after a trendchange is a very solid trade wich can be profitabele. And i have seen TopSteptraders get funded using the Viper system
Speaking of POS scam artists…I think Emmett takes the cake. Nice Job Emmett on this rave review of just how trustworthy and honest your endorsements are…who’d listen to a fraudulent con artist such as yourself…just idiots who can’t think for themselves.
http://tradingschools.info/2015/08/05/a-review-of-emmett-moore/
Major Moron is one of the vendor (probably Ace Trade Review) who got an honest and bad review from Emmett. He’s back trying to discredit this blog which can only mean that Emmett’s investigations and record of the numerous scams are hurting these scammers. That’s the reason they set up the site Major Moron refers to, it’s a clumsy attempt to discredit him. You can read all about Emmett’s past on his own blog under the “Warning” tab.
All Emmett is asking for from these vendors is to provide him 1month of verified, real trades and none of them can even demonstrate that minimal amount of success. It would be the easiest thing is the world for a vendor to discredit Emmett, simple provide your verified trading statements that support your claims. To date only 3 or 4 have been able to do this. The rest are fraudulent scammers.
A friend of mine, who is a very nice guy but total sucker for this stuff, was totally hyped up for this. He invited me over to watch over his shoulder as he hit the live trading room. It was exactly as you described in your review I just read!!! Insanely messed up yet insanely hilarious at the same time. It brought back all those memories and arguments he and I had. I held firmly my belief that it was total bunk. I issued him a challenge. I’d sit with him for numerous sessions. At the end of every live session I would ask him to do one simple thing – review what had happened and explain it to me step by step. He could never do it.
Any successful, disciplined trader can review his trading day to clearly examine his methods and critique his/her system and self. Viper was nothing but hype, noise, bells and whistles. They still maintain a bit of a YouTube presence. Seems like it ebbs and flows in 6 month waves. Probably about the time they are losing members and need to shore up the numbers again.
could not agree more, seems I just got used to the indicators and they would introduce more to confuse me, tried their auto trading, I’m too embarrased to even mention how much that cost me.
Maybe you were confused because you weren’t smart enough to use them. This company has come a long way and their Object Trader is the best tool I have ever seen. Trade your own way, they teach you to see the trades and make your own decisions.
Let’s see your account statement that substantiates your claim…
Correction to my previous post – spelling error.
I mistakenly spelled Rich’s last name as “Station” when the correct spelling is “Staiton” as opposed to your article’s introduction which incorrectly spelled it as “Straiton”.
Sorry for any confusion.
First of all I believe Rich’s name is spelled “Station” ( re: http://www.zoominfo.com/s/#!search/profile/company?companyId=357877036&targetid=profile ) not “Straiton” as noted above in the introduction.
Secondly, a background check on Station uncovers some very disturbing information indicating that Richard Station is actually a lifetime disbarred California lawyer in 1993 ( http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/79548 ).
Now if this “Richard”) at Viper is in fact the same disbarred lawyer ( which we have no way of knowing but Station has mentioned he is on Pacific time zone as is California ) that certainly speaks volumes taken in concert with the information previously presented concerning Viper’s questioned credibility and forthrightness.
Enter at your own risk.
Agree. This review is absolutely correct. Total waste of time and money with these guys. Btw, they will not let you communicate with any of their students. I asked several times without success. Total lack of transparency. What a shame!
Great Video, thanks Emmett! It had me rolling on the floor. “Happy Days Are Here Again!” “I’m glad somebody caught it.” I love those quotes from the video. My personal experience, after years of struggle, is that day trading is for people who can somehow tell near future trends on a much tighter time frame than I can. Short term, manipulated chaos will get you almost every time. The minimum time frame I even bother to consider anymore is one week, and I’m finally doing great, even in the current crazy market.
I joined them for a month. Lost at least 2 grand on the total thing. I can see that they lie.
Fucking assholes to be honest.
Wow, the moderators must be really on their toes to let someone use the F word. What are the moderators for if not to stop garbage like that. Maybe you should have done what they say to people when they first start out. Trade in sim until you know the system. I love their indicators and make use of that strategy they have that draws boxes, rays etc. It really works.
Comments here are not moderated. That’s why unsubstantiated claims from shills; ” I love their indicators and make use of that strategy they have that draws boxes, rays etc. It really works.” are allowed to be posted here.
Maybe it is because you did not attend their webinars and their training. They have a methodology that works for me. Have you actually used their Object Trader? It can get in on box trades, angle trades, swing trades, and many others and they teach a person how to use them. Pretty good tools. Their tools alone are worth the price.
Should I even bother to ask you to support your claims? Here’s what supporting a claim looks like Mindy. Here’s one of my Forex trading EAs that is going absolutely gangbusters right now. It’s returned over 100% profit in 16 weeks of trading. https (colon) (forward slash, forward slash) (all the Ws) (dot) myfxbook.com (forward slash) members (forward slash) saroq61 (forward slash) rt-gbpjpy-15-min-trend (forward slash) 2323584 My other EA bots are not doing so good but they’re verified too.
When I joined them, I was told to trade in SIM until I learned their system. Maybe you should have listened. I didn’t lose a dime the first month, because I listened to them and it took me several months to learn everything they do. Some people like to gripe and moan when it is their own fault if they went live and did not learn their methodology.
“there’s the box on the Nazy, dipping my toe, hoping for a coast to coast on that Shadow Bar” and “Watch the Bandido, Watch the Bandido, looking sloppy taking 3 quick with tight stop”
I was howling when I was reading this, if it wasn’t so pathetic I wouldn’t of felt so bad for laughing.
these statements are 100% true.