Profitunity
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Honesty
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Quality
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Cost
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Support
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Verified Trades
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User Experience
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Summary
Profitunity is selling Chaos Theory. Unfortunately, neither Bill Williams or Justine Williams has ever been able to display a verifiable, winning track record of trading. Bill Williams has been selling books and courses since the 1980’s, he is a genuinely nice person, whom should not be giving investment advice. Justine Williams, is now running the business of selling Chaos Theory, but she has zero track record of trading success. And is unwilling to produce a track record that legitimizes the application of Chaos Theory to financial markets.
User Review
( votes)Thanks for reading today’s review of Profitunity
Profitunity.com is a trading educational website originally founded by Bill Williams, a long time trading educator that dates back to the 1980’s. Bill Williams is now 84 years old and retired. Admittedly, I have a soft spot for Bill. Approximately 20 years ago, I met Bill and had a pleasant conversation with him. He is a complete and total gentleman. Kind and soft-hearted, creative and articulate, and a fantastic public speaker. It appears that Bill handed over the trading educational business to his daughter, sometime in the early 2000’s.
Bill has published several books regarding the application of Chaos Theory towards financial markets. If you are curious, the following Amazon page has a complete listing, as well as several videos of Bill talking about the markets. In addition to writing several books related to Chaos Theory and financial markets, Bill is also a bit of a social activist. During the 1970’s, Bill worked on the staff of Florida Governor Bob Graham.
In addition to working in government, and writing several books regarding Chaos Theory, Bill has also written several fictional books: Tit for Tat: The Conspiracy to Abolish the Death Penalty, Acirema : A New Beginning — A Better Way, and Ronnie : There Just Ain’t No Light.
Bill’s “thing” is Chaos Theory. He believes that Chaos is constantly inserting itself into financial markets. And that these chaotic patterns can be used to predict the future.
Since Bill Williams is no longer an active trader, and has no track record of prior trading successes listed on the website, this is a bit of difficult review to write. The business is now being actively managed by his daughter Justine, and since she has no track record, and is not willing to publish a track record then much of this review is based upon my personal opinion of chaos theory.
What is Profitunity selling?
Profitunity has several home study products: an Independent Home Study Course at $1,995, and a Professional Home Study Course at $2,495. The difference between the two appears to be only additional personal guidance directly from Justine.
In addition to the home study courses, there is a 90 minute video course on Elliot Wave Theory for $495. Anti-stress exercises $100, and a yearly subscription to Justin’s monthly interpretation of the financial markets at $600.
Trading Schools reached out to Justine and requested a track record of trading performance, and or a track record of the monthly subscription service. However, Justine refused to provide any sort of verifiable track record. Instead, she offered customer testimonials from individuals that had supposedly written to her and had described a positive experience.
Justine also offers personal coaching for $1,000 per month.
No track record of success
As readers of Trading Schools are already aware, I am a real stickler about a track record. If a trading educator is offering an indicator, books, home study courses, or trading systems…I want to see a track record. Not necessarily a large or a long track record. But I want to see that the trading educator is actually applying their methods to the markets. Are they willing to risk their own capital, can they demonstrate that the tools are being used to generate trading profits? Unfortunately, Justine has no track record. Or she is unwilling to disclose whether she is even trading. Same goes with Bill, as much as I personally like Bill Williams, the only thing that matters is whether either have ever been able to generate actual profits with Chaos Theory.
What do I know about Chaos Theory? Not much. Many years ago, I purchased Bill’s original book, Trading Chaos. However, I found the material very subjective. The book is littered with well chosen examples of what happened after a “chaos” pattern appeared. However, since there is no possible way to define Chaos Theory in a clearly defined computer code, then there is no possible way to test the theories on historical data. Once again, with something so subjective, the only possible way to apply value to the material is to measure the trading successes of the Bill and Justine. Unfortunately, none exists.
Online Reputation and the “Holistic Approach”
Profitunity, like all long time trading educators, has a few dings and dents regarding their reputation. In particular, an individual filed a complain on Ripoff Report that was not very flattering…
Well after purchasing their course I must say they are a COMPLETE SCAM… there is NOTHING useful in the entire course.
Their whole thesis is that their “alligator” (which is NOTHING more than a few combined moving averages) “leads the market” and provides traders with an unbelievable edge. They even went so far in one of the DVDs to claim their system was “back tested on super computers and proven to be 99.6% accurate”… to which I immediately went “oh lord this is a fraud”.
For all of you out there trying to invest.. NOTHING is ever 99.6% accurate.. most winning traders are only 85% accurate at best… 99.6% is completely IMPOSSIBLE over a long period of time. They claimed they used “years of data”… which again I claim no way.
I personally back tested their theory. Which uses fractal geometry. Fractals are nothing new to trading and that is why I thought this course may be onto something. However, their use of fractals is laughable and their combination of the alligator and fractals is a complete joke. I back tested using their “ideal” setups and to say it was no where near 99.6% accurate is an understatement.
I would have been happy with 90% or even 85%… but it was less than 44% accurate. And their money management had smaller winners and bigger losers.
The bottom line is that fractals may have value if used properly. Moving averages DO have value if used properly. Money Management is EXTREMELY useful if done properly… the problem is that this Profitunity course does NONE of them properly…
Save your money go elsewhere.
Profitunity responded to the negative review angrily and described the Ripoff Report complaint as being filed by a “convicted securities fraudster”. Personally, I felt that the negative review was fair game and very well written. Regardless whether this person is a felon, he makes a remarkably true statement in stating the obvious, any system claiming 99.6% accuracy is definitely a fraud.
Profitunity also claims a “Holistic Approach” to trading. What exactly is a holistic approach? The last time someone took a holistic approach to me, was at an expensive health spa…where I was talked into a herbal enema. I still cannot believe that I paid $185 to have a concoction of coffee grounds, herbs, root extract, and juice pumped into my colon.
Profitunity claims that “understanding yourself from within is what makes a difference in successful trading and investing.” That sure sounds great. I am just not so sure that understanding myself is as important to understanding basic economics and whether a company is operating profitably or at a loss. Personally, I would like to keep the holistic mumbo jumbo inside the comfortable office of my psychiatrist. What would really be helpful is to know whether Janet Yellen is going raise rates during the next Fed meeting, or whether the Wheat harvest is going to come in Over or Under the crop report.
In My Opinion
There is one thing I have learned in the past couple years of writing reviews about trading educators…there are some really whacky theories out there. Plenty of so-called PhD’s have presented a multitude of theories as to why markets rise and fall. Some claim its because of the movements of planets and celestial bodies, others claims that a set of secret codes are in hidden in the bible and they accurately predict where all markets move, yet others claim that the Illuminati or Freemasons are in control of financial markets.
Am I saying that Profitunity is a fraud? No. But what I am trying to convey is that Chaos Theory, at least in the context in which Bill Williams is applying, is of little value. The hard and cold truth is that neither Bill or Justine can produce a verifiable track record of generating profits from trading. Bill and Justine are certainly nice folks, and I believe that they are not in business to hurt people. However, Christian Scientists are also very nice people, and they are not in the business of hurting people. But their theory of forgoing modern medicine in favor of prayer and fasting is very odd.
I don’t know about you, but if I have a tumor growing in my belly, I want help from a PhD with a track record of successfully removing tumors and not a PhD of seeing patterns of Jesus on the butt of a dog.
Thanks for reading. Hope I did not offend any readers with my reference to Jesus appearing on butt of a dog. Please don’t forget to leave a comment below. And if you have had a positive experience working with Bill or Justine, I would love if you would share your story.
Profitunity Review
I exchange this framework effectively throughout recent years. You continue to post in the RL string how it is a trick and he simply loses cash. Man, I couldn’t imagine anything better than to do that. Possibly you can extend more on his technique and your experience and why it isn’t commonsense today.
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this HAS to be the worst review ever
ummm…thank you?
god is dog spelled backward now there is FRACTAL
Complete Nonsense
I took the Profitunity system in 2006 and I can tell you that this review is utter and complete nonsense, just like many others who have actually used these methods to trade.
Bills system has been very profitable for me and many others. It’s simple and easy to follow and as far as the money management goes it is probably one of the best strategies I’ve seen out there.
Bill does trade and when I took the class at his house, he showed his brokerage account statement for the year with over $500,000 in profits.
The system does work best in my opinion as an EOD system and it isn’t subjective at all. I’ve programmed variations of the system and they are profitable.
The writer need to actually test the methods he’s bashing himself before blatantly righting these reviews.
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Great Course - I cant believe anyone has a complaint about it -the creators actually trade with it
1. I took this course about 10 years ago and can vouch that it does work.
2. I cant believe the author of this post said that the creator of this course hasn’t made money with it. both Justin and Bill Williams are actual traders and make money with this, that is how they were able to update it throughout the years. they constantly simplify it
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This trading system is misrepresented in this review
The profitunity system does work I was using it for a while then had to use the money to take care of my sick wife and family. I was doing well and I want to get back to using it, I was using the previous system which was based on the book “New Trading Dimensions” and I believe they released this system which ties in with the old system because the markets were changing. Bill and Justine Williams do trade and if you take a private course with them then you get a chance to trade with them from thier home. Bill used a cray computer to test the indicators he created not as a trading system itself.
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Can some body, who use this system write to me in Skype: stells_11 (mail: Roman.kutemov(dog) gmail.com . Thank you.
Tamiaya, please, write to me too.
I trade this system very succesfully for years now.
Maybe you should stay away from trading if you don’t understand what this system is all about. You’re probably one of those guys switching from one system/strategy to another. Been there, done that…. Profitunity is all I ever need to be succesful, whether trading stocks, currencies or futures. Period!
Burning it to the ground is easy. Learning to master it is not! Obviously…
The same goes for me as an elliott wave user for years this system goes hand in hand with elliott and very consistent.
I know someone who worked for Profitunity and is very familiar with their methods. Their premise is essentially based on “reversion to the mean”. Stocks are selected based on a move outside of the norm hoping for a reversal using technical indicators and subjective interpretation. They are no better or worse than most of the trading education providers. Bill traded his own account and Justine has traded some, but neither of them would have been considered professional traders nor did they depend on their trading income for their main financial support. There are very few if any professional traders who continue to trade while offering an educational or training program. Most have become entrepreneurs in education with a focus on financial markets. There are very few individuals who have become successful enough traders to support themselves fully from trading. Those select few are not offering any training. The reality is that unlike years past, most all of the information one needs to learn to trade can be found on the internet and is free. If you are looking for a technical indicator system to solve your problems, forget it, they don’t exist.
Please save your money and don’t buy this course or any other. I am not here to promote anything, but if you want to learn to trade and trade well, get on a browser and start searching. Hint: it is free, provided by professional traders who have made enough money from the industry that they are giving back. But…their financial success, although started from trading are mostly from other business ventures related to the industry.
Bill Williams sure have a chaos brain. I admit he could make a living by selling books and courses based on these idea/points/whatever he is some sorts of genius. Could you earn money from shit, you can’t, so Bill beat you on that, this is a fact.
You are an idiot. Bill Williams is not the author of the other 3 books. And I imagine that you are not a successful trader because you are too busy writing reviews of other people’s products and services.
He is the author of those books. Please read his biography.
Thanks for your comment.
Martin,
Who else but a friend or shill would make such comments. You bring no useful information useful about Bill Williams or any evidence Emmett review is in error. You just seem to be angry he got a bad review, which screams Shill.
Bill Williams wrote 2 books on Trading Chaos, a 3rd called New Trading Dimensions, and his latest 4th book called Traders Troubleshooting Tools.
I took a personal mentorship from Bill in 2002 at his home in Carlsbad, California. It was my first training in the business. The training was for daily charts only. I traded the daily charts and made a 60% return for each of the next 2 years. After that I went onto day trading and no longer used the system.
Let it be known that I am not endorsing Profitunity, but just giving you my brief 2 year history from 15 years ago.
Also regarding the ripoff report review discussed by Emmett, I feel it fair to mention that he did not disclose the full rebuttal from Profitunity which also stated:
As far as the other comments, what he says about the 99.6% accuracy, is the accuracy of the computers generating the signal, not the accuracy of the signal itself. In addition, we do not say anything about Fractals being new. We have been using and teaching students how to fractals for over 25 years. Finally, he NEVER asked anything about Money Management. Actually, he never asked us one single trading question. Apparently he knows everything he needs to know about trading because he is already so “experienced.”
60% return. F day trading. I want to learn that 60% return method.
Start with 1$ , find approx. 2 pounds of aluminum cans and sell for scrap metal. and your capital has grown 60%. Not sure how it scales to larger starting amounts.
Yes and much better return on invesment than following any of these Trading Rooms.
Hmm, maybe I should get one of those metal finders and walk the beach.
Tamiaya, if you made 60% in each of two years, why did you stop using that system? Even if you daytraded a different system, why wouldn’t you continue to use the Profitunity system on the daily charts? I think most people would flock to a system that provided 60% annual returns.
Hi rtchoke … fair question. I received an offer to work for a large international bank headquartered Hong Kong selling BG’s to large corporations. My income was 10 times that 60% annual return of a 100K account. I did that for 5 years and retired … and not in the US. Next question you will ask is why did you retire? I got a wake up call, family was more important than living in hotels and planes and airports.
“what he says about the 99.6% accuracy, is the accuracy of the computers generating the signal, not the accuracy of the signal itself”
What does that even mean? That your computers are 99.6% good at putting dots on a chart, but that those dots mean nothing?
Oh, and like the others I too call BS on your “60% return a year” claim. Two of the greatest investors of all times, Icahn and Buffett, achieved 30% and 20% respectively, and YOU did 60%? And to top it all off, you stopped because … what … you got bored? Hahahaha. No, really, hahahaha.
A funny cynic. How is that working out for you?
In all seriousness, a 60% return on a 100K account is not going to be duplicated on a multi billion dollar account … because of a diminishing return to scale.
Your response now makes me curious. Now this is all based on my limited knowledge of your response. So if you do not mind a question:
If you made $60K ($100K * 60%) x 5 or $300K for 5 years that is $1.8 million not a billion.
So lets say after taxes and expenses you saved $1M. I would think trading off a daily chart a $100K account would be scale-able to a $1M account.
You keep posting in RL thread how it is a scam and he just loses money.
So why not trade that $1M account and make a nice $600K a year. Plus not to mention how much more peaceful trading off a daily chart is over day trading.
Man I would love to do that. Maybe you can expand more on his method and your experience and why it is not practical today.
Hi Rob …First and foremost … I am not endorsing Profitunity. I am sure that there has been changes over the last 15 years. With that being said 15 years ago I traded the the Profitunity method. Today, I see the method on the web with free downloads so nothing is being sold here. Williams only taught regarding daily charts for the Futures currencies, notes and bonds, indices, metals, grains, meats, and the New York softs. About 3-4 trades per day covering all those instruments. Analysis and placing trades with a broker back then took about 2 hours daily. Profit was 120K over 2 years on a 100K account. I majored in International Finance and took a position with a major bank in Hong Kong selling BGs amd Letters of Credit, so I tabled the trading. I made over 3 million in 5 years which was substantial 15 years ago. With an IBC and offshoring, paid very little in taxes. Took that money and converted to physical gold. Sold it in 2012 and had more than doubled that money. I then developed single family residences in the coastal areas in the country of Panama just in time when many US citizens were to become expats living in Panama. I ended up doubling that money. I also met my husband, an expat, who leads a trade team for a large banking corp in Panama. I found this site by chance. I enjoy it because of the comments and Emmets humorous writing style. It is both entertaining and also sad to see what the industry has become. I have enjoyed family life. I may again trade as my husband does, but there is no financial need. My commenting on Rightline was done after someone posted this trader was not being upright. I happened to view and noticed the same thing. But apparently it is not just Rightline, but the whole retail industry. That’s all for now.
You were trading daily charts for 2 years which I guess did not generate many trades. Statistically there will be always somebody profitable in 2 years period just by coincidence when trading daily charts (saying of the cuff it is probably couple percent chance) . You just happen to be the lucky one. I have tested myself a lot of trading methods using my own software and most of them had periods of profitability but in the long term (5-10 years) almost every one was no better than random trading. Famous daily pin bars of Nial Fuller (well known marketer) can be profitable for very long time then become unprofitable for very long time – so in long term they are unpredictable and therefore useless.
Lets get some positive reviews emmiiit
There can be nice people one meets, may even be friendly with, and they still try to sell you a rotting bridge. Maybe Bill does believe in chaos theory as a former researcher. But believing that it can be related with trading to produce consistent trading products? doubtful that either Bill or Justine really believes it or Justine or anyone with the edge would be trading and maximizing the golden goose before it died rather than selling expensive useless products per the complainee on ripoffreport. Maybe I’m not in a disturbed mood, but I can’t unsee the photo of the pig’s behind, gross! Sorry Emmett, I won’t be coming back to this review. I learned to stomach DTP’s cartoon depiction of the host sliding his butt with the toilet paper. But I am close to throwing up if I look at that photo again. Goodbye profitunity review page.
“I still cannot believe that I paid $185 to have a concoction of coffee grounds, herbs, root extract, and juice pumped into my colon.”
I know the above wasn’t the point of the article, but it is amazingly funny! Thanks for the laugh Emmett.
Been looking for someway to insert that bit of stupidity into a post. Had to do it.
Jesus on the butt of a dog.
Capital!
LOL.