Profits Run
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Honesty
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Quality
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Cost
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Support
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Verified Trades
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User Experience
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Summary
Bill Poulos of Profits Run is running a virtual smorgasbord of “get-rich-quick” trading programs. There is something for everyone. How to get rich quick scalping Forex, how to get even richer buying and selling stock options, hot to become fabulously wealthy using a super-secret trading indicator to trade Exchange Traded Funds.
A true carnival barker with over 17 years of experience hustling the naive and the desperate. The young, the elderly, and everyone in-between. Equipped with a boiler room and hyper-aggressive salesman that recommend that purchasers take out 2nd mortgages and borrow against credit cards. Promising that educational costs can be quickly recouped with a ‘copy and paste’ trading software that supposedly delivers a near-constant stream of easy cash.
Pure nonsense from a pathetic liar. No track record of ever trading successfully. A charlatan, a con-man, a carnival barker lacking even the most minimal amount of decency and integrity.
Avoid.
Thanks for reading today’s review of Profits Run
What is Profits Run? The company is a trading educational business owned by Bill Poulos, operating in Wixom, Michigan. According to Archive.Org, Profits Run appeared on the trading educational scene in 2001. Profits Run is offering a virtual smorgasbord of different trading products and services. Currently, the company is selling the following:
Profits Run is offering a virtual smorgasbord of different trading products and services. There is something for everyone. Currently, the company is selling the following products and services:
- $1997 Market Mastery 2.0 Course: how to use technical analysis to win nearly all trades.
- $1997 Portfolio Prophet Course: a method that predicts the future in only 10 minutes.
- $1997 ETF Income Engine: earn 457.5% with this copy and paste trading system.
- $1997 Options Income Engine: earn 5% per month with this copy and paste options picking system.
- $1997 Options Profit Master 2.0: earn 200%-300% daily without having to learn anything.
- $1997 Instant Options Income: easily earn $2000 per week with weekly options, only 10 minutes of effort required.
- $1997 Forex Profit Accelerator 2.0: skyrocket your Forex profits with this copy and paste Forex picker.
- $1997 Forex Income Engine 3.0: Forex scalping software, nearly 80% accurate 5-10 bars into the future.
- $1997 Forex Profit Caster: A visual Forex revolution that delivers massive daily profits. Guaranteed.
- $1997 Forex Profit Multiplier: A system is 100% accurate at predicting Forex prices-eight hours into the future.
- $1997 Gold and Silver Trend Trader: A gold trading formula that easily earns 245.1% every year.
- $16,000 Profits Run Coaching: Learn the ultra secrets of Bill Poulos, never be alone again.
Profits Run occupies the following social media channels:
Profits Run Marketing
To define Profits Run as a trading educational business is like describing a McDonald’s restaurant, as a simple hamburger shop. Profits Run is a massive sales franchise.
Profits Run is first and foremost an internet marketing company. That happens to be selling trading educational products. How many different products and services? According to Archive.Org, the company first appeared on the trading educational scene back in 2001. TradingSchools.Org spent several days attempting to curate a complete list of trading products, the truth is that so many products have existed and then disappeared, that we could not fully account.
However, we were able to build a database of websites and web addresses that have been used over the past 17 years of operation. The following is not a complete list, but our best effort:
[table id=49 /]
As you can see, we are talking about a massive amount of websites.
Profits Run executes their marketing strategy through various unique marketing channels:
- Traders Expo/Money Show seminar circuit.
- Google ads that focus on keywords related to trading and make money from home schemes.
- Email list purchasing, list sharing, and co-promotion with others selling similar products
Profits Run Aggressive Boiler Room Salesman
Profits Run also operates a boiler room. Where sales agents aggressively call customers and attempt to sell a product that fits the demographic of the person on the telephone.
During 2016, as well 2017, TradingSchools.Org used various alias personalities with varying email addresses and geographically independent phone numbers in an attempt flush out the size and the scope of the sales operation.
In one conversation, we depicted ourselves as an elderly person on a very limited income. The salesman recommended a $9,000 purchase that included software, and daily options picks. We explained that our income was limited to a modest social security check, the salesman suggested that we take out a 2nd mortgage, borrow against our credit cards, or take a loan from a friend. That most people pay off their educational costs quickly with trading profits. That money worries would soon be a thing of the past.
In yet another conversation, we depicted ourselves as a young person looking to earn money as fast as possible. The salesman recommended a $16,000 purchase with the primary focus on scalp trading the Forex markets. We mentioned that our only resource was our college investment fund. The salesman implied that the trading courses would far outweigh the benefits of obtaining a college education.
Essentially, the Profits Run buffet of products has been created so that the salesman can quickly and easily match a product with the demographic of the person on the telephone. The sales technique is similar to sales operation of Vantage Point trading software, or Market Traders Institute.
Profits Run: where is the verified performance?
Profits Run is making some very bold promises and assumptions that traders will earn massive profits from the use of their investment products. In one recorded seminar, the owner of the company, Bill Poulos claims that he has helped 17,000 people become full-time professional traders. And countless others earn thousands of extra dollars each month, by simply copying and pasting the trading signals from the software.
Yes, I want an extra $2k every week.
But does Bill Poulos have a verifiable track record of ever trading successfully? Nope. In our multiple requests to the company, we attempted to verify his many claims of amazing trading profits. He ignored all probing questions and simply quipped, “this information is for educational purposes only.”
We asked the various salespersons on the telephone if they were using the trading products that they were aggressively selling? They all replied, “Absolutely, I am making BIG BANK.” However, when asked to verify these supposed profits, they simply could not.
Complaints about Profits Run
In the past two years, TradingSchools.Org has received and reviewed dozens of complaints regarding Profits Run. The most common complaint is that the trading software was useless, and nothing more than off-the-shelf trading indicators displayed on market data.
The second most common complaint is that the company does not honor their promise of a money back guarantee. Essentially, the company will attempt to stall, manipulate, or parlay with the victim in hopes that the victim simply gives up and goes away.
The following are a few excerpts of complaints that we have received and reviewed:
ProfitCaster is a COMPLETE SCAM. I quickly realized that Bill Poulos knew less about trading than myself. -A
RUN FAST FROM BILL POULOS. He scammed me for $2000. His course is complete garbage. -B
I purchased Wealth Income Generator hoping it would change my life. It didn’t. And they refused a full refund. -C
Avoid this con man. Every month, a new twist on an old product. The Taco Bell of trading educators. -D
I purchased Forex Income Engine and promptly lost $10k. -E
Buyer Beware! This guy, and his son are con artists looking to steal from newbies. -F
Wrapping Things Up
There is absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing a trading product. But you need to make sure that the trading vendor or trading educator has a verifiable track record of prior success. If the vendor balks or makes excuses or pleads some sort of lame argument that “the regulators say it’s illegal” or “my attorney say’s it illegal” or “I am a private person, and I don’t want anyone to steal my identity” is just stroking your candy cane. Hoping to sweet talk your credit card out of your pocket.
Thanks for reading. Would love to know if you have ever had any experience with Bill Poulos.
I had contacted customer service via email about a package that I was upsold on.. and went from 70 dollars to 7 hundred dollars. I SENT A POLITE email about how my intentions were only to purchase the $70 dollar package. A MONTH LATER I RECEIVED THE MOST DISTURBING VOICE MAIL WHICH SOUNDED JUST LIKE THIS GUY Bill from profits run… saying nasty things about pissing on my mother and more … I felt so violated..
Along with everything else this scumbag has endorsements from every right-wing Nazi d’ bag from Rush Pigbaugh to Sean Hannity and the whole FOX Not News Reich.
Just listening to him for 5 minutes I had a brother that worked a Boiler Room Operation out of Miami. Then Graduated to a Series 10 opened up a Boiler Room out of Broward some Old Sheriffs Office. Well his Dreams got shot down fast. One scam after another, somehow they seem to all have the same pitch all the time.
Remember do your homework. Don’t be afraid not to check. My brother started off honest. Lasted 3 Years folks, that’s all.
Thanks for the info was going to buy program for 2000.NOT now.
I LISTENED TO HIM CONSTANTLY REPEATING HIS SALES PITCH HE SHOULD RENAME HIMSELF ,PETE,REPEAT,REPETER ONE MORE TIME PETERS SMOOTHIE ,REACH FOR DA STARS OOPS CREDITCARD ,,,ALMOST BUT BEWARE WANTS ALL YOUR INFO BEFORE LAYING OUT THE COST OF THIS WEALTHY PROGRAM,,, WHICH LED ME TO GOOGLE HIS NAME AND $$$ BA DA BING BLESS YOUR INTELLIGENCE AND GUTS FOR THIS SITE ,,, I SALUTE YOU ///$$$
🙂 😀 😎
Excellent dissection of the Poulos operation! Vague handwaving promises hidden in smokescreens of double-talk
thank you so much for the article
I have been recently bombarded with the Bill Poulos “Make a Million” schemes. My theory has always been…if you’re selling how to get rich quick, this means you’re the one getting rich selling the scam…because if you scam worked…you would ALREADY BE RICH and no need to be hawking scams!
So with that said….who do you recommend as a LEGITIMATE Stock Investing educator that can teach and show a rookie where real investment benefits are?
Why isn’t the government going after this guy? Why is he “licensed” by the government to practice unethical business practices? He must be paying some government body to look thevother way. The government is at fault for allowing Bill Poulos to take advantage of consumers.
a bit over board arent you lady?
I THINK IT GOES LIKE THIS DA WOLF IS GUARDING DA HEN HOUSE WITH DA KEY IN HAND hehehe
I agree that if someone is constantly selling deceitful products with no proof that a real service exists, he should go to jail. The whole organization should be banned. False advertising at a minimum.
Thank you for informing me about this I’ll-reputed company and the con-man, BullPoulos running it. I knew from the get go his product sounded too good to be true.
due diligence??? Lot of complaints, some probably just talk, but as mentioned, If its too good to be true, usually it is.
Even though it is a small amount, i will call for a refund.
Useless video. Available better videos on YouTube free. Do not pay $7.00(even a penny) for turning $5000 to $60000.00 video.
Thank you for Info, I just bought the $7 training but it went next product & next product & I didn’t want the $279 product just the &7 . Now I have to wait until Monday to call because they are closed weekends, hope I get refund,
SCAMS are ILLEGAL JAIL TIME call the atty general let them know u gonna call then they will offer you a fifty percent off ,you say no its my money and i want it back NOW sound familar hahaha they will give it back ,,,I HAVE DONE IT MANNY TIMES,JUST DONE ONE LAST NITE ,,,BE WARE PAYING SHIPPING ONLY FOR TRIAL U NEED TO MARK THE DATE ON A STICKER ON YOUR COMPUTER,,,TRIAL IS USUALLY A WEEH TELL THEM IT DOESNT WORK /// WORKS ALL DA TIME /// GOOD LUCK .
I paid $400.00 to join trading but then I had stroke and paralyzed. When I ask for returning my money and i did not do anything with this company, they refuse to pay me back. it tell you what kind of people they are.
Saved by the Moore again! Jeez Emmett these guys sound so genuine! LOL
How can this company not be “found out” and seriously investigated as the scam that it is… praying on naive peoples’ hopes and dreams.
I have no less than five different “cloaked” marketing emails from different Profit Run/Bill Poulos related persons. Serious Red Flag of a scam!
With the recent extreme spike in volatility, how can any reputable trading education firm try to sell weekly income plays on weekly options. This act alone is an example of a scam, considering current (Feb ‘18) market conditions. Currently, there aren’t many smooth “deliberate” trading days that he refers to in his way outdated (2013/14 examples) and pre-recorded webinars. Currently, there are violent swings in volatility and not wise or recommended strategy.
I will be blocking this scam artist company from my email inbox.
I just try to get rid of his persistent garbage emails cluttering up my screen. This alone tells me he is a scammer and I stay away.
This guy is the king of marketing scams.
Bill Poulos Profits Run/Instant Options Income
This is my personal experience with the weekly options trading platform only.
I am an inexperienced options trader that purchased the program after listening to Mr. Poulos explain the program. He told me exactly what I wanted to hear, and I was very excited to purchase the program and begin using it. I am profoundly disappointed to report that it does not work as Mr. Poulos presents it.
The time frame is August 10th through December 22nd, (4 ½ months). I funded my account with TD Ameritrade with $8000 and followed his directions explicitly. The guarantee is that you may get a refund for any reason within 60 days. You can also get a refund after trading for one year if you send him all of your trading confirmations and your Welcome Packet. First off, 60 days isn’t long enough to know if the program works so I ignored that deadline. Secondly, I did not open my welcome packet for almost a month, and when I did open it the box was empty.
He does not do any business on the phone. Everything is done on email. There are a lot of different trading platforms and you must figure it out for yourself how to translate his recommendations into actual trades.
So what happens when you follow his recommendations? Mostly frustration. Your trades will not fill. He may very well have a track record of winning trades that is over 70% but you don’t make any money if your trade doesn’t fill. He occasionally addresses this online by telling you to be patient. He says that about half of your orders will fill over a period of a year. This week there were four options recommended and I had two of the four options fill, both lost money and to date I am over $4000 down. Add that to the $2500 I have given to Mr. Poulson and I have a $6500 deficit after only 4 1/2 months.
What he tells you in his sales pitch is not an outright lie. He is guilty of omission. He doesn’t give you all the facts.
What you get on a regular basis are more sales pitches to buy more of his other programs. He uses the same sales pitch to sell more programs. He tells you how tired you must be of using the same old program that just doesn’t work. He is correct. But the problem is that it’s the program I purchased from him that doesn’t work.
Being an incurable optimist, I still think there may be a way to make money with the weekly options by buying spreads. I wanted what he was selling, simplicity and very little time expense. Not happening.
I too joined the weekly option program for a year but stopped to follow his trades after the first month. Doing spreads for less than a week is lot more difficult than doing month spread which I later found out by trial and error
I did do the Profits Run and made enough to payoff my cost */- $900. I still use some of the “Filters” to search today. I also did the Instant Options Income but got out quickly. I was and still not impressed with this method.
Totally. heeevy salesmanship ..Thing is. you know how i got this? Thru S&C (Traders.com) magazine! ..Was good maybe when Larry Williams/in the 70s..These days; eh ..
DONT BUY THE COURSE!!!! its an easy download from CBOE into excel. Just copy the stock names from excel and paste them into finviz. you can sort your preferences from finziv and look at those stocks.
I am a serious options trader who makes a few % per week/month trading options and looking at increasing this.
I read all comments on this feed and note very few positive comments meaning all of you lost money. From my brief look at the Profit Run web site and the various things that are stated on there it confirmed the way I am trading is probably correct and am trying to find a way to better select the underlying stock to trade the options on.
The following are 8 tips that I have developed covering risk mitigation and financial management and from reading the posts am unsure many of the posters on here would have followed and dare I say also the re-viewer:
1. Only EVER invest round 3-5% in any trade, this is regardless if you have invested $1000, $10,000 or $100,000
2. Only EVER invest the same amount in all your trades ie set an amount at say $500 (or whatever that suits your risk management portfolio) so all trades will be roughly round that amount set
3. NEVER invest in a trade over your set amount even if you think the trade is a given winner, Murphy’s law states that that’s the one that will eventually let you down, if you loose 50% on a ‘given’ trade (and its many times your set trading amount) you need to make 100% back to break even.
4. ALWAYS be in at least 8-10 trades min. (the more the better) so your risk is spread as much as possible hence if your win loose ratio is 75/25 you will still have 5-6 winners.
5. In options NEVER use stop loses, these are OK for share trading however options are way to volatile to be used, you will find in many instances your stop lose will be hit then find the underlying stock soars meaning you miss out on a good gain.
6. As a preference to 5. above use trend lines and watch the underlying trading in real time charting software, in this way you can watch and if underlying is falling below the trend consider what action to take.
7. If you are trading the NYSE never trade in the first 1/2 – 1 hour of trading, I nic this time as the ‘silly season’, if you can’t resist trading in this time walkaway and only return once the ‘silly season’ has passed (note this is exactly what I do)
8. Finally you will NEVER make 100% on your trades, if you make 80% then you are at the pinnacle of success, if any site claims above 80% they are quite simply lying
All the above comments on risk mitigation and financial management are detailed in the videos, talks etc that I have reviewed on the Profit Run web site however I wold bet the many of the posters on here (and dare I say the reviewer himself, note here the reviewer does NOT state how he traded and if he did actually trade what his results were, surely this would be the ultimate test!!!!) would have followed ALL of the above, break any one of the above and I can guarantee your trading will NOT be as successful as it otherwise could be.
Note I have nothing to do with the profit run web site in any way but am fed up in general with comments and criticisms of sites in general and only decided to post this to point out that you must approach the trading of options in controlled way and follow strict financial management rules otherwise your experience will not be very pleasant.
Good Luck and happy options trading.
Bill (note not Poulos!!!)
Thanks Emmet. I only look for reviews done by yourself.
Thks & rgds
Hey. I’m writing my new book and starting a new course.
And I’m pretty much ok with your reviews. However I am apprehensive about your honest opinion as beside the bad testimonials. There is no evidence that you have gone through their course?
Having said that. I want to be genuine and true and fair to any students who sign up with me.
I would like to know which mentors or courses you highly recommend?
David
I won’t say it is a scam, but it is nothing near to “profitable”. I have joined the Instant Option Income program and it costs me 2k and I lost another 2k from using it then I could not be bothered to check back anymore.
Also joined at the same time the Option Income Engine. This one works better but in the long run still give poor results. I trade better on options with my gut easily beating the two systems.
Could not blame others, I will have to admit greed and laziness got me almost losing my shirt.
If Emmett wants to know more about how the website run, I could share more info with you as my membership is still not expiring.
B
People like this are just scam artists and make all their income from deceiving others into believing their methods make money even though the truth is their methods lose more money than they make! If you do the opposite of these scam artists’ trades you probably will make money.
The tradingschools google ad-aware auto ads advertises for Greg Poulos and shows his mug in the top right occasionally. just a heads up in case tradingschools plans to do something about it. looks awkward.
I really enjoy the comprehensive reviews here and I use this site weekly to reference against when I get advertising inquiries from education providers. I rejected two inquiries recently because the reviews posted here about those companies were basically terrible. It saves me a lot of hassle because prior to tradingschools.org, I would bring on an advertiser only to discover that our community at EliteTrader.com tore the guy apart instantly just by asking the same simple question: “Can you provide proof of what you claim.” Then of course the advertiser would crumble under the scrutiny and then the whole advertising arrangement was cancelled.
With that said, I have noticed on many occasions that there are advertisements on this site which are promoting the services of the very company or individual that got a one-star review. As a type this, there are literally ads for Bill Poulos’ ebook in the sidebar of this page, and all over this web site.
I think that tradingschools.org has done a magnificent job of exposing so much BS in this industry, but the fact of the matter is that it’s a huge conflict of interest to be getting paid on the advertising side from the exact same people you are calling out as deceptive and/or fraudulent. I understand that ads appear from random advertisers because the site is running Google Adsense ads, but I also know a blacklist can be set up in the Adsense console for publishers to prevent certain ads from showing up at all.
If this were just an every-so-often event, then it wouldn’t even be worth bringing up, but I’ve noticed this is an ongoing issue that I’ve seen recurring over and over again for the past year. I just don’t want the credibility of the awesome reviews here to be diminished by this conflict-of-interest problem that is fairly easy to fix.
Thanks again for the service you’ve provided here.
Baron
Thanks Baron.
Its tough running a site like Elite Trader (which I admire). You always have to straddle the need for advertising revenue vs keeping things clean. I pretty much killed that sort of relationship with the brokers and software vendors, none of them will touch me.
I agree about the conflict of interest regarding the Google ads. Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of control as the ads are placed by Google.
The revenue model for TradingSchools.Org is affiliate based. Which presents another set of problems. With no good solutions. I could always drop all advertising and affiliate and go membership site. But who is going to pay for a constant stream of negative reviews! Lol. People want solutions.
With that being said…can someone please find me a decent Forex day trader? This creature is as mythical as a leprechaun riding a unicorn.
Glad to see this review climbing up on google search. Remember someone commented Poulos is ok, he is just selling education, no it’s not, he is selling financial disaster. Stay away from this scumbag.
David, that is exactly correct. These con men are selling the fantasy which will usually cause more financial havoc than their free material packaged for sale. They will continue to encourage the rookie trader to learn more then you will be profitable. If the aspiring trader doesn’t have a shut off valve, they could lose their whole life savings which happens quite often. Not to mention, the time and effort one puts in to reach that mirage the grifters keep dangling. None of these educators trade with a live account anymore and most likely some never traded live. They wouldn’t risk the fraudulent money received from sheep being slaughtered monthly.
26 days later at the top of the search!
Thx for great public service
Bagged you a big old , slickster , scumbag , huh Emmitt ?
Nice job …
Big old slickster.
Sometimes I wonder how people fall for this stuff?
Why would you wonder.
There is nothing new under the sun. People are still exactly the same as when you were swindling them. (Not being snarky with you as you already came clean about your past. I am just stating it as a cold, unjudging, fact). :-_
I’ve long seen spam email ads with legacy scam Poulos’ name as I’m sure many who’ve been around and tried various sham trials before they woke up from the shilled kool-aid. Exactly, every month, every year, there’s a bunch of new aspiring retail traders and students who have no idea the totality of these shams who count on and make bank from this repeating cycle. Tradingschools is like a hazard warning sign no one bothered to put around falling rocks and slippery slopes.
Since the first Wall Street movie to The Wolf of Wall Street, there are young aspiring traders looking to get in the business in some way and with the rise of social media these hucksters gain a spot in their minds. Not to mention the many unsatisfied 9 t0 5 employees looking for a career change, they too become daily income to these fraudulent sites.
I haven’t come across a site that puts these crooks in check until Trading Schools. Unfortunately, there will be enough bait each month to chose from among the online trading grifters.
“In one conversation, we depicted ourselves as an elderly person on a very limited income. The salesman recommended a $9,000 purchase that included software, and daily options picks. We explained that our income was limited to a modest social security check, the salesman suggested that we take out a 2nd mortgage, borrow against our credit cards, or take a loan from a friend.”
I am surprised he did not say sell a kidney and then buy back 2 with all the money you will make from the knowledge gained by taking their course.
Seriously, Emmett when are you going to finally do something to take these con artist down by publishing a book exposing this whole Day Trading Scam and doing every interview out their. Do one else has the creds to do it.
Rob B, I expected much more from you today. I say that tongue and cheek because even someone like you eventually gets just tired of speaking up about the whole industry being a scam. My point, the regulators know how bad it is and they know drastic moves are needed in order to just slow it down. I firmly believe it will continue to get worse if something is not done by regulators in a dramatic course of action. The crooks are learning that this is an easy con with little blow back. For every story of a senior getting swindled by this guy that Emmett hears about there are ten more behind it.
Yes I have become a softy. Speaking of that What the Hell happened to the Stray Dog. Hopefully he is OK.
Wow. It is so sad this con artists don’t spare even the most vulnerable and the elderly folks. More power to you. Keep on exposing this scammers.
Thanks
Riz
Wow, I’m sorry but it still shocks me that there are people like this scoundrel out there looking to make a living off of other people’s misery. I know by now nothing should surprise me after all the posts of this blog, but there must be hundreds of people that lost because of this man’s scam and he is the tip of the iceberg. There must be some regulators in charge of thwarting the tidal wave of scams with a half of sense to know that if sweeping changes aren’t made it will continue to get worse. Think about it, Emmett is one blog and uncovered how many dirt bags in 2 years. One man with no budget. I always here they care, but there must be more they can do.
The regulators and lack of concern is because there is an inherent conflict of interest between the regulators, trading educators, and trading consumers. To blame human nature being greedy for falling for these scams is an utterly cynical cop-out akin to the awful victim blaming in the death of that fabulous young man Otto Warmbier who went to North Korea, RIP Otto. Back to the issue, the regulators, such as the NFA, are self-regulating but their main purpose is to market trading to retail and institutions through FCMs, IBs, and CTAs. Have you ever wondered why futures brokerages don’t publish statistics on the profitability and yearly costs of trading, due to commissions and fees of their clients? The NFA wants to make more money from traders, they want more resting cash balances at brokerages, they don’t want SIPC insurance on your funds and they want more transactions with higher commissions and fees, while they allow nanosecond-based HFT at the CME to prey on the less informed and sophisticated traders, which is all that a Bill Poulos is doing as well. The pro-active prosecution and litigation against trading frauds would not fit into this pattern of self-interested behavior, this pattern of collusion between the NFA, CFTC, and the exchanges and predatory HFT and predatory trading educators must end now, it is a threat to our way of trading and our American way of life itself. Drain the swamp!
what a pile of gobblydook plagiarizing phrases and words from other article writers trying to make a nebulous sounding point , lol. so the CFTC is in cahoots, yeah right. The CFTC gets their funding from the taxpayers not from brokerage commissions. Of course the brokers don’t want to show how most retailers lose, doh, no need to “wonder”.