Felton Trading
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Honesty
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Quality
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Cost
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Support
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Verified Trades
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User Experience
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Summary
Felton Trading is day trading educational company offering custom indicators and a live day trading room. Roger and Beverly Felton, a husband and wife team are certainly not scammers, and are doing their best to offer a quality product. My main gripe is that Roger does not trade with a live trading account. I find it troubling, that after so many years of selling trading products, he has not been able to transition from trading educator to actually trading with a live trading account. Another problem is that Roger and Clint, both excessively use limit orders, which we were not able to consistently replicate using best efforts. Not a cheap product. Not an excellent product, not a terrible product. Perhaps useful for newbie traders. Performance claims are 100% marketing baloney.
User Review
( votes)Thanks for reading today’s review of Felton Trading
What is Felton Trading? Felton Trading is a futures day trading educational school that is owned and operated by Roger and Beverly Felton. The business is located at a residential address in Victoria, Texas.
The day trading school has three components: a live day trading room, video lessons on technical analysis, and a suite of indicators that have been developed by Roger Felton.
The pricing is as follows:
- $1,495 which includes unlimited support by Roger or Clint, access to the educational video’s, unlimited access to the trading room, and 1-month usage of the Roger’s special indicators.
- $300 per month to lease the special indicators, Or
- $3,900 one-time fee for unlimited usage of the special indicators.
The live day trading room operates from 8:00-12:00 CT, Monday through Thursday. Friday’s are reserved for paying customers.
A quick review of Archive.Org reveals that FeltonTrading.com came online in late 2006, or early 2007.
Felton Trading maintains a social media presence on YouTube, as well as Facebook.
A quick review of the Felton Trading website reveals a clean, functional, and well maintained website. An online search for any negative information on Felton Trading was also conducted. Hardly any dirt could be found. Considering that Felton Trading has been active since 2006, I would of expected to find more negative material and negative customer posts. Hardly any could be found. Felton Trading also maintains an accredited business listing at the Better Business Bureau. Since 2010, Felton has no registered complaints at the BBB.
Performance Claims
Felton Trading maintains a spreadsheet of all of the trades that Roger and Clint make inside of the live trading room. Felton Trading claims that since June 1, 2014 through July 2016, Roger made a little over $500,000 day trading, and Clint made $340,000 day trading. The following is a screen shot of the supposed equity curve:
If you are looking at this equity curve, you might be tempted into thinking that this looks absolutely beautiful. Perhaps even too beautiful. These equity curves are so smooth that you could ride a skateboard upon this beautiful ramp. Naturally, I was very suspicious and so I reached out to Felton Trading and asked for additional proof. Specifically, I wanted to see an account statement from either Roger or Clint, that matches these performance results.
Unfortunately, after speaking with Beverly Felton, she explained that no account statements could be given. And that these results were strictly hypothetical. After pressing and pushing, she admitted that Roger is only trading from a simulator.
Truth be told, I found Beverly, Roger and Clint to be quite personable. Very nice people. They are soft spoken and have very much a “down home” southern attitude. Roger is getting up there in years, and I don’t want to call him ancient, but my impression is that Roger is probably in his 70’s or early 80’s. Since Beverly and Roger are quite honest and open about trading on a simulator, I felt like the best option would be to attend the live trading room (using an alias), and record the trades over a two week period.
The Live Trading Room
During the month of June 2016, TradingSchools.Org recorded approximately 8 of the live day trading sessions. Each session was recorded and a spreadsheet was maintained to record performance. On average, Roger and Clint were recording about $1,000 per day in profits. However, my assistant Reyna was only able to replicate about 50% of the trades.
During the course of the trial period, we did manage a profit. However, there were some serious red flags. The first is that neither Roger or Clint are deducting commissions. The second was that many of the trades could not be replicated.
The problem with replication
The problem of replication was plainly evident on day 1, and was easy to isolate and identify. Roger and Clint are using limit orders to enter and exit trades. Some of the markets that they traded were highly illiquid and were of such light volume that Reyna found it highly unlikely that an actual fill could be obtained. For instance, on a soybean trade, the price “kissed” and then ran away for a huge profit. There was no possible way to match the entry price. While Roger claimed a big profit on the trade, Reyna was never able to actually get filled. Some readers might be tempted into believing that they could replicate using market orders, but this is simply not possible. Especially when a market like natural gas begins quickly ripping away from the initial entry price.
We noticed this pattern of entering and exiting on limit orders to be highly unrealistic. Especially on crude oil, gold, copper, natural gas, and the grain markets.
The only way to know for sure if Roger’s magic trading indicators are worth the $3,900 investment would be if Roger and Client could actually earn real profits, using real trading accounts. Unfortunately, neither were willing to supply this. And so we had to use our best estimate, using our simulated results that require full pass through on price.
Yes, requiring full pass through on price is a conservative use of a trading simulator. But it is also the most realistic and presents the worst case scenario of how a trading method is probably going to work in the future. Factoring in the full pass through method, while attempting to replicate Roger and Clint’s trades yielded profits of a little over $200 for the trial period. Once commissions were deducted, we broke even. While Roger and Clint made thousands of hypothetical dollars, we managed to barely escape at break even.
Zero proof of concept
The big problem with Felton Trading is that (it appears) Roger or Clint are not actually trading with a live account. And I personally find this perplexing. The supposed trading figures that Felton Trading look wonderful. So why not drop a few thousand dollars into an actual account and take the trades? Its not like Roger and Clint are couple of young guys with no money to risk. These are mature guys that should be able to actually trade with a live, real money trading account. These guys have been doing this for many years, and after so many years, they still cannot execute with a real money account? Seems depressing to me. Also suspicious.
The real problem of limit orders
Many newbie traders are not aware of what a limit order actually is. Let me give a crash course on limit orders. And then transition this information into an actual trading system that is using limit orders.
What exactly is a limit order? Quite simply, a limit order allows a person to buy a security at a discount of the advertised price. Suppose that the emini SP500 is currently trading at 2000. If a person is looking to immediately buy the emini SP500, then they can buy immediately at 2000.25. This is a market order and it lifts the price by .25 or $12.50.
If a person is looking to sell the emini SP500, then they can immediately sell at 1999.75, which conversely drops the price by .25 or $12.50.
This .25 in either direction is what we call the spread. Its the price of participation. Its what makes markets move up and down. However, a limit order allows a person to execute an order to buy or sell, without moving the price higher or lower. Its buying or selling at a discount. The markets are very efficient, and they simply do not allow a person to easily buy or sell at a discount. This is the fundamental problem with Felton Trading. Since Roger and Clint are trading with simulators, and they are always buying and selling at a limit order discount, then they are always able to get filled at a better price than a person using a live, real money trading account.
This is the reason why Reyna, using a simulator that requires full pass through of price was not able to replicate the trades of either Roger or Clint. They could always get filled, while Reyna could not get filled. Its subtle and hard for the newbie to understand. And unfortunately, most newbies have to learn the hard way that using a simulator and using a live real money account are like riding a race horse vs riding a unicorn. A race horse is fast, agile, and will throw your ass off in a second. A unicorn dances on rainbows and can be ridden by little girls eating twinkies.
Real world example (Super Scalper Trading System)
Lets take a look at a real world example of how trading educators and live trading rooms use limit orders to their advantage to create the perception of amazing profits, while the users of their products are consistently losing money. The following trading system we shall name, Super Scalper Trading System. And it only costs $3,995.
The Super Scalper Trading System is simple to understand and the hypothetical results are of the unicorn variety.
Rules for the Super Scalper Trading System are as follows:
Establish a simple price trend: If the price of the emini SP500 is greater than the open of the day’s trading session, then we are in an established and verifiable uptrend. Since we are in an uptrend, we are only looking to buy.
The system is simple, we simply buy a single emini SP500 futures contract at the open of every 5 minute bar, at the market price. Once the order is filled, we are looking to profit at $25 per trade. There is no stop. And if we are not able to get filled for a profit of $25 for the trade, then we exit the trade at the end of the day. We exit on a limit order once the trade reaches $25 in profit.
Conversely, we will apply these exact same rules to the short side. If the market is below the open of the day session, we will short and look for a profit of only $25.
The system runs on 5 minute bars and since January 1, 2014 has yielded the following equity curve results:
As you can see, the Super Scalper Trading System is simply amazing! Trading only a single contract, a person can expect to make over $50,000 per year! All you have to do buy the system for $3,995 and take the signals from the screen. You too can immediately become a professional day trader!
However, before you send me your $3,995 for the Super Scalper Trading System, let me give you an honest bit of information. The exit for the system uses a limit order to take profits at $25. And this system does not require full pass through on price.
Now, lets go back and change the code on the system. Lets change just one tiny bit of code. This time, we are going to require that in order for the $25 profit exit to be considered valid, the price must pass through the $25 profit threshold. With this new bit of code, we are now requiring that the trade become profitable at just one additional tick, or $37.50. If the trade passes through $25 in profit and then actually touches $37.50, then we will count the trade at a profit of $25. This is the ONLY WAY TO VALIDATE, in a real world trading environment whether the Super Scalper Trading System is actually valid. Lets now take a look at the system, with the tiny bit of code change…
Super Scalper System (only $3,995) Real World Trading
The following is the results for our amazing Super Scalper System, when factoring in the one additional step of requiring a single tick, pass through on exit price…
Holy crap! What just happened? The system originally showed an annual profit of over $50,000 in annual trading profits. But now, we required that the limit order exit price must actually pass one additional tick. The system went from being a huge profit maker to being a huge loser. In fact, our Super Scalper Trading System, which showed such promise in hypothetical testing, is actually a horrible trading system. Just that one tick, that modification of one Limit Order changed the entire picture of the story.
This is the fundamental problem with trading rooms, and trading system vendors…they are using limit orders or simulator’s that create the impression of easy profits. But when a person attempts to replicate the strategy in a real world environment, they are quickly slaughtered.
Keep in mind, that my example is using a highly liquid trading instrument, the ES. Roger and Clint are trading everything under the sun. Stuff with very little liquidity. Stuff like natural gas and soybeans. There is no possible way that they can execute these limit orders in a real world trading environment.
Perhaps we now know the real reason why Roger and Clint are not trading with live accounts. Perhaps they know something that you are going to find out about, only after you pay your $3,995 for the Super Scalper Trading System. The real market is a fast and cruel racehorse. No unicorns.
A common tale
By far, the most common emails that I receive from persons that purchase trading products is that they cannot replicate the trades from the system vendor or the live trading room. Most people tell me horror stories of how they started off with hope and faith. How they purchased the trading system or magic indicators and then optimistically funded the trading account with $10,000 from savings. They begin trading. And then about a week or two later, they start to notice these tiny discrepancies. These little misses in price and execution. The trading vendor makes $100 on a trade, while they make $75. The trading vendor loses $100 on a trade, while they lose $125. After awhile, the miss in price starts to compound and stack up. The vendor is showing a profit of $800 for the week, while the customer has only broken even. These “degrees of separation” seem insignificant, like e coli bacteria, but they quickly multiply and compound. Eventually this tiny separation in performance grinds the account down, slowly and subtly. But grind it does.
The bottom line is that the trading vendor is riding the simulated results of a magical unicorn. They enjoy every benefit. They eat twinkies and their equity curve slowly moves higher. But the customer, whom is frantically attempting to replicate the results are slowly grinding the account down to zero. Its sad. I hear this exact same story, most every single day.
The moral of the story is to either require actual account statements from the vendor, or thoroughly test the rules of the system. Yes it true that some vendors do not trade, and that they only sell systems, which is OK. But in these situations, the code needs to be scrutinized and hardened against real world scenarios. Sadly, most people have no idea how to perform these tests. I plan on spending more time writing on this subject. And perhaps I can even convince some of my readers, that are actively trading with systems can write more on the subject.
That’s it for today. And Roger and Clint, thanks for giving me access to the trading room. I found both of you to be gracious and entertaining. Perhaps I can convince either of you to take the plunge and start trading with a live account. This way we can get a real world evaluation and a new review written. Would love to see if your stuff can actually perform in the real world.
Thanks for reading and don’t forget to leave your comments below.
You can definitely see your skills in the article you write.
The arena hopes for even more passionate writers like you who aren’t afraid to say how they believe.
At all times go after your heart.
it’s sad that Felton 🙁 comes thru Ninjatrader ..
if you don’t get filled that is your problem…that is just show how much you know about the market ..moron
Here’s an interesting tidbit. Big Mike just banned a guy for shilling for Felton.
https://futures.io/trading-journals/39444-overnight-trading-journal-7.html#post606235
This guy “HoopyTrading” was running a journal and then making unsolicited PMs to other users to suggest they sign up for Felton Trading.
So was this a shill or just a clueless but innocent kool-aid drinker?
It wouldn’t be the first time someone ran a sham journal in order to attract attention, so I suspect it is a shill.
Dr.Handley,mbaphdjd, did a video review of Felton! Looks like didn’t go for the grand tetons club. A little too late to try to be more scrutinizing than TS as the tesseracted-tetons are still a joke in comparison ex. TFIAmico
https://youtu.be/DdVIL-eXUhk
Emmett, this article is full of holes I am surprised you even bothered to post it. Do you have any idea how bad you look with that supposed simulated “1-extra tick” nonsense, and the total inversion of the equity curve? Are you mad?
When simulating a limit order entry, or limit order exit, you need to include passthrough on the bid/ask spread. This is the only way to guarantee that the limit order is actually being filled.
Of course, you may have a better way. I am all ears.
Just another trump university scam, con, ripoff…keep der wallet in der pocket
They don’t always use limit orders, that is why they talk many times of the SLIPPAGE on their trades. Did you not pay attention in class?
You heard them talk about slippage and from that you inferred that they’re not using limit orders? Lol, I think it’s you who’s not paying attention.
Can you please explain to the audience on how one can get slippage on a limit order? Thanks!
On a limit order, you can only get positive slippage.
The problem with those pesky limit orders is the difficulty in getting them filled.
K, so, your equity curve is the inverse of theirs because you used limit orders, never had positive slippage and so your limit orders were never filled because you did not “pass-through” your limits…Hmmm okay. Have you tried your replay with market orders?
Hello, Emmett? Have ye tried this?
Not if you use an offset with a Stop Limit Order…. I’m a Felton student and have been for awhile. It’s not impossible to make money with this system.
Emmet thanks for the work you doing exposing these snake oil salemen, I have been a victim of their sharp tongue. Would you please review theintentionaltrader.com , Tony Peterson and also OrderFlow Analytics D. B Vaelo
I just saw a recent ninjacesspool ad webinar on theintentionaltrader which has a logo of some brit guy with a hat walking under an umbrella. I could tell it was a sham from the intro blather. The indicatored charts looked like a typical bmt member journal. The vendor guy seems to be a laid back easygoing guy with a friendly vibe similar to Felton but it’s still a snakeoil sham and a long time vendor member of bmt.
okay i will get straight to the point i have been trading for about 6 years as a hobby i do not trade for a living because i do not have to . so i will clear some things first of all roger trades in sim that is no secret the only way you can make money in trading is with a limit order that is the way all traders do first with a limit order you are going to get filled before the price can move up or down that is what the supply for the orders getting filled if anyone have been to the felton trade room you can see where to put your limit order along time in advance of the price getting to it what you see on the charts is what is going on in the markets in real time when the software says to go long a certain price . just say 45.20 long and then 6 bars later the market is at 45.45 how did the market get there is this a sim to , no it is what the market is actully doing i never had a limit order that did not get filled if you have a resting limit order the market cannot move higher or lower until at that time in place all or the orders as been taken that is why the market moves back and forth all of the rest limit order must be taken at that time that the market is there . if you put a limit order to go short at 45.95 one minute before the market gets to 45.95 the market must take your order before it moves down past 45.95 , now if you put a limit order at the same time the price hits 45.95 you may or may not get filled then because you where late to the party
I do not like to say this but people are idiots if they pay some unknown guru for their secret sauce. I watched his intro video. Yes he sounds like a trust worthy older man. However, these are the worst kind of scammers. They F you with a smile and will give a reach around to placate you if you ask to many questions. But a scam is a scam. They have just perfected it better than most.
He is using ninja trader as his platform. With the indicators he charges you for they are probably already available for free in Ninja Traders list of indicators. He is using renko bars with wicks and a momentum indicator. I can can replicate his momentum indicator with the True Strength Index and change the settings to 5/13/1 But to the general public who have no about trading he looks like a genius.
The old trust me type of fake trade rooms are the worst ones in my judgement.
Emmett can you make a review on mook trading? Thanks
felton worked for traders international..please check out traders international and bullseyetrader…google franz shoar
felton trading…traders international…bullseyetraders
Thanks for reviewing felton trading. Roger was with Traders International before starting Felton trading. Traders International was a scam…please review them. Roger was the only honest person there. Afshin and Franz Shoar…please look up these names…. were trading fake demo accounts showing they were making a million dollars a week. There scam was busted at the Ny traders expo where a group pf people who bought there crap confronted them and shut down there demo at the show. Roger then started felton trading and Franz started bulleyestraders…please check the out. A few hundred people who purchased there stuff contacted the CFTC and tried to get there money back without no success. These few hundred people wrote to Traders International and demanded refunds with no success. Roger wanted to give refunds but the others said no. Rodger had the decency to make thing right but he could not. Felton trading is based on Traders International. divergence trading with a macd and stochastics but with a lot of bells and whistles. Save your money and just do it yourself. PLEASE REVIEW TRADERS INTERNATIONAL AND BULLSEYETRADERS LOCATED IN MARYLAND.
This is a good review for me to read, and has given me the first step down the path to figuring out why the price goes up when people buy. When I buy socks at the store, if ten people beat me to buying the socks, the price of socks still does not go up (at least immediately). The price of my currency pair is rapidly going up and down, which I find confusing and looks like simple price manipulation on the part of the bank.
With my forex account I can trade down to fractions of a penny, so I really don’t need a simulator to test a new system in the live market. Are you using a simulator here because you can’t do micro sizing for trading soybeans? Ideally I think you’d always want to use a real account. I also see the problem where a small sized lot would get filled easily compared to a big one, so even that wouldn’t be accurate but it would be better than a simulator with no slippage.
Join tThanks for reviewing felton trading. Roger was with Traders International before starting Felton trading. Traders International was a scam…please review them. Roger was the only honest person there. Afshin and Franz Shoar…please look up these names…. were trading fake demo accounts showing they were making a million dollars a week. There scam was busted at the Ny traders expo where a group pf people who bought there crap confronted them and shut down there demo at the show. Roger then started felton trading and Franz started bulleyestraders…please check the out. A few hundred people who purchased there stuff contacted the CFTC and tried to get there money back without no success. These few hundred people wrote to Traders International and demanded refunds with no success. Roger wanted to give refunds but the others said no. Rodger had the decency to make thing right but he could not. Felton trading is based on Traders International. divergence trading with a macd and stochastics but with a lot of bells and whistles. Save your money and just do it yourself. PLEASE REVIEW TRADERS INTERNATIONAL AND BULLSEYETRADERS LOCATED IN MARYLAND.he discussion
Emmett has usually asked for actual trading results, not simulator, although in some cases he has accepted the simulator. I totally disagree with accepting any simulator results.
I don’t care about the tick or two difference that the simulator gets over a real account, in a long term account I don’t see that as a big difference. But . . .
trade real money and see how your mind works. See how you trade after taking several losses in a row. Watch that hard earned money slip out the door and then enter the next trade and the next regardless of the outcome (assuming you have a good system). Simulated trading ignores the psychological part of trading — and if you don’t think that’s important, then I would imagine you haven’t really traded. Especially for the newbie traders because they, more than the experienced traders, will face that bridge all too soon, and that challenge will really determine if you (a) trust your system and (b) trust yourself as a trader. Bah humbug on simulated trading.
Totally agree. Psychology is huge. And that is probably the reason why Roger Felton does not actually trade with a live account. Its a tough game.
Roger Felton sort of reminds me of a high school football coach. Nice guy and he understands the fundamentals, but promising the players that they are close to entering the NFL is just bunk marketing. He does have something to teach and its of value. But it irks me that he displays that track record like he is Tom Brady or Payton Manning.
You are 100% correct! So why is it that nearly all traders ( especially newbies) only focus on method- This is what suckers them from vendor to vendor searching for the holy grail in trading.
Thankfully I have been in a few rooms where the operator demonstrated taking hits like a man. Actually yelling at anyone who did not take the hit
and also got in trouble for not holding for targets. He wanted to see your
trade results every week and held you accountable. He was tough-
but I learned so much from him- and most of what he taught I use today.
I was yelled at plenty of times . He was also straight up- Wanted to know how much I had available to trade- Set expectations that I would need enough cash to live for a year without expecting trade income. All of that before he would even accept me as a student.
So I agree with your post 100%- How many of these companies have a method AND can teach psychology. Very Very few. The guy I mentioned I would not classify as a psychologist – But he required you to stand up and put your balls on the line. If you didn’t he would chop them off in front of an audience.
When I developed my system, I wanted something that would give me an entry, a stop and several targets (I use multiple time frames), and something that was mainly price-based without a lot of indicators (I use one indicator but only as a confirmation of entry). I didn’t need to reinvent the wheel, there are plenty of ways to develop a workable system. A new trader can use a simulator to test whether the technical part of his/her system works on a consistent basis. However, once that is established you still have to undergo the trial by fire of trading with real money. Since no system is 100% accurate there will be losses and the true test of your worth as a trader is how you respond to the losses. I repeat what I said in another post: “Manage the losses; the profits take care of themselves.” BTW, I didn’t have a guy yelling at me, I did that myself each time I was careless or fearful or greedy. Oh, and I contributed plenty before I finally started getting it right.
The key is to be able to take a loss in peace and forget about it. Many cannot do this in SIM- If they cannot trade theor method in SIM they have no business trading live. IMHO.
Simulated accounts have gotten better up to simulating bid/ask. TOS sim used to be joke on their dom before TDA. Now it doesn’t fill unless there is a real bid/ask data from the live. It could be an offshoot of HFT technology has carried over into simulated account servers improving so much they can even fool the ‘robot’. But totally agree it’s never the same psychologically as trading live. That’s why the lure of sham vendors with their sim accounts are still fooling people into the unicorn dreams. Its’ still much to easy to average down a 1-5min trade into a swing sim trade like they do in the WT room. On a real account, one could get a heart irregularity.
This is really a great review. I learnt so much how the fraudsters make up their trades with simulators. However I cannot really grasp the reason why this one tick that the price needs to travel through leads to such a change of the equity curves in your sample systems. From reading the rules I would have expected both trading systems to have random outcome, so I would have expected both equity curves swinging wildly up and down but basically flat and not trending. Especially when there are no stops in place. Doesnt then happen the situation that the price goes excessively against the anticipated direction which would lead to large drwadowns in the curve? And why does the additional tick lead to a complete reversal of the curve, maybe you could elaborate a little on that?
Thanks for commenting. I will be writing more on this subject in the future. You ever hear that saying, “you don’t know, what you don’t know”? There are various ways we can introduce unknowable variables into a trading strategy, which yields a more realistic equity curve.
In the example from the review, I used the worst case variable. This was juxtaposed against the best case scenario presented by Felton. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Roger’s review was not altogether terrible because he does have some valid concepts. But his expectations were way, way, way to optimistic. And since he does not actually trade, this does not inspire a great deal of optimism. I sort of like Roger, but I very much dislike his theoretical trade reporting. Pure baloney. Would be great if Roger comes onto the blog and speaks with the audience. But he wont until the review starts to effect his business.
Felton had a long early history with bmt. There was even a deal for a discount for the felton indicators with an elite membership on bmt. I would agree about the pleasant demeanor, unfortunately it gets new subscribers into a kool-aid phase for some period before they wake up from the “unicorn” dream. The reason why there’s no string of negative posts because they have been deleted. bmt admin often deletes entire threads and posts when there is a fallout with a prominent vendor member or even a non-vendor popular poster. I never went for the site’s indicators or room, but have known of others on bmt who did. Good recap of limit orders and how an indicator system could look skewed. I had done a bunch of ninja strategies tries and a strategy was positive it would be overly optimistic so there is a “slippage” factor one could add by a number of ticks and it would drastically change the expected performance which segues with a limit order and sim system vs. the market reality.
Your use of the term “simulator” needs elaboration because all such “paper trading” programs are not the same. You recognize this when you say that your simulator (the one you use to confirm a vendor’s trading results) has a different, more stringent rule for achieving fills. Many brokerages offer demo or paper trading accounts, and the better of these firms appear to take their simulations seriously. For instance, I have used Interactive Brokers (IB) demo account for several years, and the results I achieve in the demo match very closely the results I can achieve in my live account, which is to say that the demo account respects the bid-ask spread and also factors in commissions. I personally would be satisfied with a verified demo account statement from IB in terms of establishing the legitimacy/validity of a vendor. I would still be concerned that the vendor was not willing to trade live, but that is a somewhat different issue.